How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?











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Is ignition confirmed using a temperature sensor, pressure sensor or another device?










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    up vote
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    Is ignition confirmed using a temperature sensor, pressure sensor or another device?










    share|improve this question









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    EdwardJ is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      up vote
      17
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      17
      down vote

      favorite











      Is ignition confirmed using a temperature sensor, pressure sensor or another device?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      EdwardJ is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      Is ignition confirmed using a temperature sensor, pressure sensor or another device?







      propulsion engine-design combustion ignition






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      edited Nov 7 at 16:09









      Organic Marble

      51.4k3135217




      51.4k3135217






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      asked Nov 7 at 11:35









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      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          2 Answers
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          active

          oldest

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          up vote
          16
          down vote













          For the Space Shuttle Main Engine, four checks were done to set the "Ignition Confirmed" condition.




          1. The High Pressure Fuel Turbopump shaft speed was checked against a minimum limit.

          2. The Main Combustion Chamber pressure was checked twice, once against a minimum limit, and once to ensure it was between an upper and lower bound.

          3. The Antiflood Valve was checked to ensure that it was open.


          enter image description here



          The Antiflood Valve was a pressure-operated poppet valve that, when open, allowed liquid oxygen to flow into the SSME heat exchanger and then on to the LOX tank in the External Tank.



          enter image description here



          source



          Lots of other parameters were checked continuously throughout engine operation and could shut the system down if limits were exceeded; these were just the ones that set Ignition Confirmed.






          share|improve this answer





















          • The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:03






          • 1




            I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 7 at 17:16








          • 1




            perfectly, thanks!
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:32










          • Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
            – Ferrybig
            Nov 8 at 7:39










          • @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 8 at 11:48


















          up vote
          5
          down vote














          How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?




          Sometimes, you don't. Pressure sensors, flow sensors, and such are yet another device that can fail. Moreover, what if nothing can be done / needs to be done if ignition fails to occur? In the case of the Shuttle (Organic Marble's answer), all three main engines were needed for launch. Something could be done and had to be done in the case of failed ignition: All engines needed to be shut down and the ignition of the solid rocket boosters needed to be prevented. The Shuttle used a number of sensors, pressure sensors and flow sensors, to determine whether launch needed to be aborted in the 6.6 seconds between the command to light the main engines and liftoff. This Redundant Set Launch Sequencer (RSLS) abort happened five times, at least once because of a failed sensor rather than a true problem.



          Consider instead an uncrewed vehicle that has been launched and released from the launch vehicle. Suppose the vehicle has a zero fault tolerant main engine and a non-redundant set of zero fault tolerant attitude thrusters. The engine and attitude thrusters either work or they don't. Nothing can be done, and nothing needs to be done with if an engine fails. Vehicles such as these typically do not have sensors that detect ignition.



          Another way to avoid those very expensive and failure-prone sensors is to make the navigation sensors such as accelerometers and rate gyros serve dual purpose as thruster failure detection devices. The point of using thrusters is to change the vehicle's translational or angular velocity; thruster failure should, in theory, be detectable via the navigation sensors. NASA used this approach for Mini AERCam, Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite (SPHERES), and for X-38. Mini AERCam and SPHERES used cold gas thrusters; all that's needed are flow sensors. These vehicles are so small that a little puff of cold gas makes the vehicle respond very quickly. This responsiveness made Mini AERCam and SPHERES thruster failures rather easy to detect via the navigation sensors.



          X38 on the other hand was a bit balky and responded rather slowly to thruster firings. This made X-38 thruster failures rather difficult to detect via the navigation sensors. Using navigation sensors to detect thruster failures suffered a noise to signal problem. Statistical techniques were needed to gradually let the navigational signal from a thruster failure gradually rise above the noise inherent in the navigation sensors.






          share|improve this answer























          • But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
            – Uwe
            Nov 7 at 19:58










          • @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
            – David Hammen
            Nov 7 at 22:02











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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

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          up vote
          16
          down vote













          For the Space Shuttle Main Engine, four checks were done to set the "Ignition Confirmed" condition.




          1. The High Pressure Fuel Turbopump shaft speed was checked against a minimum limit.

          2. The Main Combustion Chamber pressure was checked twice, once against a minimum limit, and once to ensure it was between an upper and lower bound.

          3. The Antiflood Valve was checked to ensure that it was open.


          enter image description here



          The Antiflood Valve was a pressure-operated poppet valve that, when open, allowed liquid oxygen to flow into the SSME heat exchanger and then on to the LOX tank in the External Tank.



          enter image description here



          source



          Lots of other parameters were checked continuously throughout engine operation and could shut the system down if limits were exceeded; these were just the ones that set Ignition Confirmed.






          share|improve this answer





















          • The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:03






          • 1




            I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 7 at 17:16








          • 1




            perfectly, thanks!
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:32










          • Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
            – Ferrybig
            Nov 8 at 7:39










          • @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 8 at 11:48















          up vote
          16
          down vote













          For the Space Shuttle Main Engine, four checks were done to set the "Ignition Confirmed" condition.




          1. The High Pressure Fuel Turbopump shaft speed was checked against a minimum limit.

          2. The Main Combustion Chamber pressure was checked twice, once against a minimum limit, and once to ensure it was between an upper and lower bound.

          3. The Antiflood Valve was checked to ensure that it was open.


          enter image description here



          The Antiflood Valve was a pressure-operated poppet valve that, when open, allowed liquid oxygen to flow into the SSME heat exchanger and then on to the LOX tank in the External Tank.



          enter image description here



          source



          Lots of other parameters were checked continuously throughout engine operation and could shut the system down if limits were exceeded; these were just the ones that set Ignition Confirmed.






          share|improve this answer





















          • The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:03






          • 1




            I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 7 at 17:16








          • 1




            perfectly, thanks!
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:32










          • Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
            – Ferrybig
            Nov 8 at 7:39










          • @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 8 at 11:48













          up vote
          16
          down vote










          up vote
          16
          down vote









          For the Space Shuttle Main Engine, four checks were done to set the "Ignition Confirmed" condition.




          1. The High Pressure Fuel Turbopump shaft speed was checked against a minimum limit.

          2. The Main Combustion Chamber pressure was checked twice, once against a minimum limit, and once to ensure it was between an upper and lower bound.

          3. The Antiflood Valve was checked to ensure that it was open.


          enter image description here



          The Antiflood Valve was a pressure-operated poppet valve that, when open, allowed liquid oxygen to flow into the SSME heat exchanger and then on to the LOX tank in the External Tank.



          enter image description here



          source



          Lots of other parameters were checked continuously throughout engine operation and could shut the system down if limits were exceeded; these were just the ones that set Ignition Confirmed.






          share|improve this answer












          For the Space Shuttle Main Engine, four checks were done to set the "Ignition Confirmed" condition.




          1. The High Pressure Fuel Turbopump shaft speed was checked against a minimum limit.

          2. The Main Combustion Chamber pressure was checked twice, once against a minimum limit, and once to ensure it was between an upper and lower bound.

          3. The Antiflood Valve was checked to ensure that it was open.


          enter image description here



          The Antiflood Valve was a pressure-operated poppet valve that, when open, allowed liquid oxygen to flow into the SSME heat exchanger and then on to the LOX tank in the External Tank.



          enter image description here



          source



          Lots of other parameters were checked continuously throughout engine operation and could shut the system down if limits were exceeded; these were just the ones that set Ignition Confirmed.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Nov 7 at 16:05









          Organic Marble

          51.4k3135217




          51.4k3135217












          • The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:03






          • 1




            I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 7 at 17:16








          • 1




            perfectly, thanks!
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:32










          • Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
            – Ferrybig
            Nov 8 at 7:39










          • @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 8 at 11:48


















          • The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:03






          • 1




            I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 7 at 17:16








          • 1




            perfectly, thanks!
            – uhoh
            Nov 7 at 17:32










          • Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
            – Ferrybig
            Nov 8 at 7:39










          • @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
            – Organic Marble
            Nov 8 at 11:48
















          The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
          – uhoh
          Nov 7 at 17:03




          The chart says MCC PC, 290 psia at 1700 ms and 610 to 1,000 psia at 2400 ms. Are those readings from a pressure transducer connected directly to the combustion chamber itself, exposed to the burning fuel's heat and pressure, or some indirect measurement?
          – uhoh
          Nov 7 at 17:03




          1




          1




          I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
          – Organic Marble
          Nov 7 at 17:16






          I think this answers that: space.stackexchange.com/questions/28134/…
          – Organic Marble
          Nov 7 at 17:16






          1




          1




          perfectly, thanks!
          – uhoh
          Nov 7 at 17:32




          perfectly, thanks!
          – uhoh
          Nov 7 at 17:32












          Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
          – Ferrybig
          Nov 8 at 7:39




          Its really weird reading that the are 4 checks, but then seeing only 3 numbers
          – Ferrybig
          Nov 8 at 7:39












          @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
          – Organic Marble
          Nov 8 at 11:48




          @Ferrybig I don't understand your comment.
          – Organic Marble
          Nov 8 at 11:48










          up vote
          5
          down vote














          How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?




          Sometimes, you don't. Pressure sensors, flow sensors, and such are yet another device that can fail. Moreover, what if nothing can be done / needs to be done if ignition fails to occur? In the case of the Shuttle (Organic Marble's answer), all three main engines were needed for launch. Something could be done and had to be done in the case of failed ignition: All engines needed to be shut down and the ignition of the solid rocket boosters needed to be prevented. The Shuttle used a number of sensors, pressure sensors and flow sensors, to determine whether launch needed to be aborted in the 6.6 seconds between the command to light the main engines and liftoff. This Redundant Set Launch Sequencer (RSLS) abort happened five times, at least once because of a failed sensor rather than a true problem.



          Consider instead an uncrewed vehicle that has been launched and released from the launch vehicle. Suppose the vehicle has a zero fault tolerant main engine and a non-redundant set of zero fault tolerant attitude thrusters. The engine and attitude thrusters either work or they don't. Nothing can be done, and nothing needs to be done with if an engine fails. Vehicles such as these typically do not have sensors that detect ignition.



          Another way to avoid those very expensive and failure-prone sensors is to make the navigation sensors such as accelerometers and rate gyros serve dual purpose as thruster failure detection devices. The point of using thrusters is to change the vehicle's translational or angular velocity; thruster failure should, in theory, be detectable via the navigation sensors. NASA used this approach for Mini AERCam, Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite (SPHERES), and for X-38. Mini AERCam and SPHERES used cold gas thrusters; all that's needed are flow sensors. These vehicles are so small that a little puff of cold gas makes the vehicle respond very quickly. This responsiveness made Mini AERCam and SPHERES thruster failures rather easy to detect via the navigation sensors.



          X38 on the other hand was a bit balky and responded rather slowly to thruster firings. This made X-38 thruster failures rather difficult to detect via the navigation sensors. Using navigation sensors to detect thruster failures suffered a noise to signal problem. Statistical techniques were needed to gradually let the navigational signal from a thruster failure gradually rise above the noise inherent in the navigation sensors.






          share|improve this answer























          • But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
            – Uwe
            Nov 7 at 19:58










          • @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
            – David Hammen
            Nov 7 at 22:02















          up vote
          5
          down vote














          How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?




          Sometimes, you don't. Pressure sensors, flow sensors, and such are yet another device that can fail. Moreover, what if nothing can be done / needs to be done if ignition fails to occur? In the case of the Shuttle (Organic Marble's answer), all three main engines were needed for launch. Something could be done and had to be done in the case of failed ignition: All engines needed to be shut down and the ignition of the solid rocket boosters needed to be prevented. The Shuttle used a number of sensors, pressure sensors and flow sensors, to determine whether launch needed to be aborted in the 6.6 seconds between the command to light the main engines and liftoff. This Redundant Set Launch Sequencer (RSLS) abort happened five times, at least once because of a failed sensor rather than a true problem.



          Consider instead an uncrewed vehicle that has been launched and released from the launch vehicle. Suppose the vehicle has a zero fault tolerant main engine and a non-redundant set of zero fault tolerant attitude thrusters. The engine and attitude thrusters either work or they don't. Nothing can be done, and nothing needs to be done with if an engine fails. Vehicles such as these typically do not have sensors that detect ignition.



          Another way to avoid those very expensive and failure-prone sensors is to make the navigation sensors such as accelerometers and rate gyros serve dual purpose as thruster failure detection devices. The point of using thrusters is to change the vehicle's translational or angular velocity; thruster failure should, in theory, be detectable via the navigation sensors. NASA used this approach for Mini AERCam, Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite (SPHERES), and for X-38. Mini AERCam and SPHERES used cold gas thrusters; all that's needed are flow sensors. These vehicles are so small that a little puff of cold gas makes the vehicle respond very quickly. This responsiveness made Mini AERCam and SPHERES thruster failures rather easy to detect via the navigation sensors.



          X38 on the other hand was a bit balky and responded rather slowly to thruster firings. This made X-38 thruster failures rather difficult to detect via the navigation sensors. Using navigation sensors to detect thruster failures suffered a noise to signal problem. Statistical techniques were needed to gradually let the navigational signal from a thruster failure gradually rise above the noise inherent in the navigation sensors.






          share|improve this answer























          • But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
            – Uwe
            Nov 7 at 19:58










          • @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
            – David Hammen
            Nov 7 at 22:02













          up vote
          5
          down vote










          up vote
          5
          down vote










          How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?




          Sometimes, you don't. Pressure sensors, flow sensors, and such are yet another device that can fail. Moreover, what if nothing can be done / needs to be done if ignition fails to occur? In the case of the Shuttle (Organic Marble's answer), all three main engines were needed for launch. Something could be done and had to be done in the case of failed ignition: All engines needed to be shut down and the ignition of the solid rocket boosters needed to be prevented. The Shuttle used a number of sensors, pressure sensors and flow sensors, to determine whether launch needed to be aborted in the 6.6 seconds between the command to light the main engines and liftoff. This Redundant Set Launch Sequencer (RSLS) abort happened five times, at least once because of a failed sensor rather than a true problem.



          Consider instead an uncrewed vehicle that has been launched and released from the launch vehicle. Suppose the vehicle has a zero fault tolerant main engine and a non-redundant set of zero fault tolerant attitude thrusters. The engine and attitude thrusters either work or they don't. Nothing can be done, and nothing needs to be done with if an engine fails. Vehicles such as these typically do not have sensors that detect ignition.



          Another way to avoid those very expensive and failure-prone sensors is to make the navigation sensors such as accelerometers and rate gyros serve dual purpose as thruster failure detection devices. The point of using thrusters is to change the vehicle's translational or angular velocity; thruster failure should, in theory, be detectable via the navigation sensors. NASA used this approach for Mini AERCam, Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite (SPHERES), and for X-38. Mini AERCam and SPHERES used cold gas thrusters; all that's needed are flow sensors. These vehicles are so small that a little puff of cold gas makes the vehicle respond very quickly. This responsiveness made Mini AERCam and SPHERES thruster failures rather easy to detect via the navigation sensors.



          X38 on the other hand was a bit balky and responded rather slowly to thruster firings. This made X-38 thruster failures rather difficult to detect via the navigation sensors. Using navigation sensors to detect thruster failures suffered a noise to signal problem. Statistical techniques were needed to gradually let the navigational signal from a thruster failure gradually rise above the noise inherent in the navigation sensors.






          share|improve this answer















          How do you confirm ignition in the combustion chamber of a rocket?




          Sometimes, you don't. Pressure sensors, flow sensors, and such are yet another device that can fail. Moreover, what if nothing can be done / needs to be done if ignition fails to occur? In the case of the Shuttle (Organic Marble's answer), all three main engines were needed for launch. Something could be done and had to be done in the case of failed ignition: All engines needed to be shut down and the ignition of the solid rocket boosters needed to be prevented. The Shuttle used a number of sensors, pressure sensors and flow sensors, to determine whether launch needed to be aborted in the 6.6 seconds between the command to light the main engines and liftoff. This Redundant Set Launch Sequencer (RSLS) abort happened five times, at least once because of a failed sensor rather than a true problem.



          Consider instead an uncrewed vehicle that has been launched and released from the launch vehicle. Suppose the vehicle has a zero fault tolerant main engine and a non-redundant set of zero fault tolerant attitude thrusters. The engine and attitude thrusters either work or they don't. Nothing can be done, and nothing needs to be done with if an engine fails. Vehicles such as these typically do not have sensors that detect ignition.



          Another way to avoid those very expensive and failure-prone sensors is to make the navigation sensors such as accelerometers and rate gyros serve dual purpose as thruster failure detection devices. The point of using thrusters is to change the vehicle's translational or angular velocity; thruster failure should, in theory, be detectable via the navigation sensors. NASA used this approach for Mini AERCam, Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite (SPHERES), and for X-38. Mini AERCam and SPHERES used cold gas thrusters; all that's needed are flow sensors. These vehicles are so small that a little puff of cold gas makes the vehicle respond very quickly. This responsiveness made Mini AERCam and SPHERES thruster failures rather easy to detect via the navigation sensors.



          X38 on the other hand was a bit balky and responded rather slowly to thruster firings. This made X-38 thruster failures rather difficult to detect via the navigation sensors. Using navigation sensors to detect thruster failures suffered a noise to signal problem. Statistical techniques were needed to gradually let the navigational signal from a thruster failure gradually rise above the noise inherent in the navigation sensors.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Nov 7 at 18:52

























          answered Nov 7 at 18:17









          David Hammen

          29.2k167126




          29.2k167126












          • But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
            – Uwe
            Nov 7 at 19:58










          • @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
            – David Hammen
            Nov 7 at 22:02


















          • But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
            – Uwe
            Nov 7 at 19:58










          • @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
            – David Hammen
            Nov 7 at 22:02
















          But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
          – Uwe
          Nov 7 at 19:58




          But sensors used for telemetry data may be used for ignition detection too.
          – Uwe
          Nov 7 at 19:58












          @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
          – David Hammen
          Nov 7 at 22:02




          @Uwe - It doesn't matter whether the failure detection is an onboard or ground control function. The data will come from various onboard sensors, and that's what the question is asking about.
          – David Hammen
          Nov 7 at 22:02










          EdwardJ is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










           

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