What's the point of composing music for the violin in D flat?











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I want to play Romance from Gadfly by Shostakovich, but being in D flat makes it more difficult to play than if it were a semitone higher. I don't see any interest in composing in D flat for the violin because this way you lose the open strings and the natural harmonics.



What's the point of composing music for the violin in D flat?










share|improve this question
























  • You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
    – Tim
    Nov 10 at 12:47








  • 22




    Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
    – Tetsujin
    Nov 10 at 13:00






  • 2




    @Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
    – Scott Wallace
    Nov 10 at 14:27






  • 6




    @Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
    – General Nuisance
    Nov 10 at 16:52






  • 1




    Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
    – rlms
    Nov 10 at 20:55















up vote
8
down vote

favorite












I want to play Romance from Gadfly by Shostakovich, but being in D flat makes it more difficult to play than if it were a semitone higher. I don't see any interest in composing in D flat for the violin because this way you lose the open strings and the natural harmonics.



What's the point of composing music for the violin in D flat?










share|improve this question
























  • You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
    – Tim
    Nov 10 at 12:47








  • 22




    Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
    – Tetsujin
    Nov 10 at 13:00






  • 2




    @Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
    – Scott Wallace
    Nov 10 at 14:27






  • 6




    @Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
    – General Nuisance
    Nov 10 at 16:52






  • 1




    Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
    – rlms
    Nov 10 at 20:55













up vote
8
down vote

favorite









up vote
8
down vote

favorite











I want to play Romance from Gadfly by Shostakovich, but being in D flat makes it more difficult to play than if it were a semitone higher. I don't see any interest in composing in D flat for the violin because this way you lose the open strings and the natural harmonics.



What's the point of composing music for the violin in D flat?










share|improve this question















I want to play Romance from Gadfly by Shostakovich, but being in D flat makes it more difficult to play than if it were a semitone higher. I don't see any interest in composing in D flat for the violin because this way you lose the open strings and the natural harmonics.



What's the point of composing music for the violin in D flat?







violin key






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Nov 16 at 12:23









Tim H

2,65511639




2,65511639










asked Nov 10 at 12:09









Jiu

1472




1472












  • You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
    – Tim
    Nov 10 at 12:47








  • 22




    Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
    – Tetsujin
    Nov 10 at 13:00






  • 2




    @Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
    – Scott Wallace
    Nov 10 at 14:27






  • 6




    @Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
    – General Nuisance
    Nov 10 at 16:52






  • 1




    Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
    – rlms
    Nov 10 at 20:55


















  • You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
    – Tim
    Nov 10 at 12:47








  • 22




    Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
    – Tetsujin
    Nov 10 at 13:00






  • 2




    @Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
    – Scott Wallace
    Nov 10 at 14:27






  • 6




    @Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
    – General Nuisance
    Nov 10 at 16:52






  • 1




    Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
    – rlms
    Nov 10 at 20:55
















You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
– Tim
Nov 10 at 12:47






You could always imagine there are two sharps in the key sig. instead. That would put your playing into an easier D major. By yourself that's a good option, but if others are playing with you, with transposing instruments, things could get awkward for them. Or - you tune down a semitone, which really wouldn't hurt too much.
– Tim
Nov 10 at 12:47






22




22




Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
– Tetsujin
Nov 10 at 13:00




Or you could imagine he did it so you wouldn't be able to use open strings, quite intentionally.
– Tetsujin
Nov 10 at 13:00




2




2




@Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 10 at 14:27




@Tetsujin - That sounds quite plausible to me, including the fact that the absence of sympathetic vibrations from the open strings softens the sound too. But without knowing more about Shostakovich's motivations, it's probably impossible to say for sure.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 10 at 14:27




6




6




@Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
– General Nuisance
Nov 10 at 16:52




@Testujin That was exactly what I was thinking -- Gadfly is a slower, sweeter piece. No need for bright, annoying open strings. I used to have a conductor who would stop the entire orchestra whenever she heard an open string from the string section. "They hit me like darts!"
– General Nuisance
Nov 10 at 16:52




1




1




Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
– rlms
Nov 10 at 20:55




Another reason to avoid open strings is that you can't do vibrato on them.
– rlms
Nov 10 at 20:55










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
17
down vote













The example you gave, Shostakovich's Gadfly suite, gives you quite a lot of the answer: music is often written for several instruments at once, only one of which is a violin. The Bb clarinet is no doubt thinking "whew, this score's key signature no longer looks so crazy".



Maybe Shostakovich associated his initial idea for that Romance so strongly with D flat major that he did not care how good that prominent violin sounds in that key, or maybe he only came up with the prominent violin part later in the compositional process.



Another reason that violin music is written in D flat major and other keys with no prominent open strings may be precisely because it's harder to make those keys sound good. There must be a reason why a recording of that Romance ended up on an album named "Virtuoso Violin".



And if you really want open strings in D flat major, there may be a scordatura tuning that allows for this. (Saint-Saens's "Danse Macabre" famously uses scordatura tuning so its violins can play those Eb-A parts easier.)



Oddly, I just Googled score images for the Romance from the Gadfly suite, and none of them are in D flat major. (They're most commonly in C major or D major.) Granted, Shostakovich's works not being in the public domain makes his original scores tough to verify without listening to them, and I have reason to believe that all of those scores are of arrangements.






share|improve this answer





















  • Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
    – b3ko
    Nov 10 at 13:11






  • 4




    @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
    – badjohn
    Nov 10 at 14:11










  • @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
    – b3ko
    Nov 10 at 14:29






  • 2




    His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
    – Pat Muchmore
    Nov 10 at 16:04






  • 1




    chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
    – James K
    Nov 10 at 21:11


















up vote
1
down vote













Here's a slightly more Occam's Razor answer: it doesn't answer the specifics of your query, but in the general case of your title question it bears repeating.



I was once asked almost the same question about a piece i wrote -- a choral piece with recurring C♯ in the altos which provided a tonal anchor (i'm loath to say key). Anyway, i was asked, "Why C♯ in the altos? Why not C?" to which i answered: "It's what i heard." Perhaps composers of music in "difficult" keys would answer the same were they asked.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    I really wish there was an online score so we could see the original keys of the entire suite!



    The only thing I can find is...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gadfly_Suite



    ...everything else I find is some kind of arrangement.



    Anyway, considering the Romance was only one movement from a suite, the key selection for the Romance could depend on the surrounding movements in the whole suite.






    share|improve this answer





















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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      active

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      votes






      active

      oldest

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      up vote
      17
      down vote













      The example you gave, Shostakovich's Gadfly suite, gives you quite a lot of the answer: music is often written for several instruments at once, only one of which is a violin. The Bb clarinet is no doubt thinking "whew, this score's key signature no longer looks so crazy".



      Maybe Shostakovich associated his initial idea for that Romance so strongly with D flat major that he did not care how good that prominent violin sounds in that key, or maybe he only came up with the prominent violin part later in the compositional process.



      Another reason that violin music is written in D flat major and other keys with no prominent open strings may be precisely because it's harder to make those keys sound good. There must be a reason why a recording of that Romance ended up on an album named "Virtuoso Violin".



      And if you really want open strings in D flat major, there may be a scordatura tuning that allows for this. (Saint-Saens's "Danse Macabre" famously uses scordatura tuning so its violins can play those Eb-A parts easier.)



      Oddly, I just Googled score images for the Romance from the Gadfly suite, and none of them are in D flat major. (They're most commonly in C major or D major.) Granted, Shostakovich's works not being in the public domain makes his original scores tough to verify without listening to them, and I have reason to believe that all of those scores are of arrangements.






      share|improve this answer





















      • Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 13:11






      • 4




        @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
        – badjohn
        Nov 10 at 14:11










      • @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 14:29






      • 2




        His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
        – Pat Muchmore
        Nov 10 at 16:04






      • 1




        chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
        – James K
        Nov 10 at 21:11















      up vote
      17
      down vote













      The example you gave, Shostakovich's Gadfly suite, gives you quite a lot of the answer: music is often written for several instruments at once, only one of which is a violin. The Bb clarinet is no doubt thinking "whew, this score's key signature no longer looks so crazy".



      Maybe Shostakovich associated his initial idea for that Romance so strongly with D flat major that he did not care how good that prominent violin sounds in that key, or maybe he only came up with the prominent violin part later in the compositional process.



      Another reason that violin music is written in D flat major and other keys with no prominent open strings may be precisely because it's harder to make those keys sound good. There must be a reason why a recording of that Romance ended up on an album named "Virtuoso Violin".



      And if you really want open strings in D flat major, there may be a scordatura tuning that allows for this. (Saint-Saens's "Danse Macabre" famously uses scordatura tuning so its violins can play those Eb-A parts easier.)



      Oddly, I just Googled score images for the Romance from the Gadfly suite, and none of them are in D flat major. (They're most commonly in C major or D major.) Granted, Shostakovich's works not being in the public domain makes his original scores tough to verify without listening to them, and I have reason to believe that all of those scores are of arrangements.






      share|improve this answer





















      • Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 13:11






      • 4




        @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
        – badjohn
        Nov 10 at 14:11










      • @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 14:29






      • 2




        His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
        – Pat Muchmore
        Nov 10 at 16:04






      • 1




        chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
        – James K
        Nov 10 at 21:11













      up vote
      17
      down vote










      up vote
      17
      down vote









      The example you gave, Shostakovich's Gadfly suite, gives you quite a lot of the answer: music is often written for several instruments at once, only one of which is a violin. The Bb clarinet is no doubt thinking "whew, this score's key signature no longer looks so crazy".



      Maybe Shostakovich associated his initial idea for that Romance so strongly with D flat major that he did not care how good that prominent violin sounds in that key, or maybe he only came up with the prominent violin part later in the compositional process.



      Another reason that violin music is written in D flat major and other keys with no prominent open strings may be precisely because it's harder to make those keys sound good. There must be a reason why a recording of that Romance ended up on an album named "Virtuoso Violin".



      And if you really want open strings in D flat major, there may be a scordatura tuning that allows for this. (Saint-Saens's "Danse Macabre" famously uses scordatura tuning so its violins can play those Eb-A parts easier.)



      Oddly, I just Googled score images for the Romance from the Gadfly suite, and none of them are in D flat major. (They're most commonly in C major or D major.) Granted, Shostakovich's works not being in the public domain makes his original scores tough to verify without listening to them, and I have reason to believe that all of those scores are of arrangements.






      share|improve this answer












      The example you gave, Shostakovich's Gadfly suite, gives you quite a lot of the answer: music is often written for several instruments at once, only one of which is a violin. The Bb clarinet is no doubt thinking "whew, this score's key signature no longer looks so crazy".



      Maybe Shostakovich associated his initial idea for that Romance so strongly with D flat major that he did not care how good that prominent violin sounds in that key, or maybe he only came up with the prominent violin part later in the compositional process.



      Another reason that violin music is written in D flat major and other keys with no prominent open strings may be precisely because it's harder to make those keys sound good. There must be a reason why a recording of that Romance ended up on an album named "Virtuoso Violin".



      And if you really want open strings in D flat major, there may be a scordatura tuning that allows for this. (Saint-Saens's "Danse Macabre" famously uses scordatura tuning so its violins can play those Eb-A parts easier.)



      Oddly, I just Googled score images for the Romance from the Gadfly suite, and none of them are in D flat major. (They're most commonly in C major or D major.) Granted, Shostakovich's works not being in the public domain makes his original scores tough to verify without listening to them, and I have reason to believe that all of those scores are of arrangements.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Nov 10 at 12:28









      Dekkadeci

      3,8872917




      3,8872917












      • Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 13:11






      • 4




        @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
        – badjohn
        Nov 10 at 14:11










      • @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 14:29






      • 2




        His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
        – Pat Muchmore
        Nov 10 at 16:04






      • 1




        chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
        – James K
        Nov 10 at 21:11


















      • Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 13:11






      • 4




        @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
        – badjohn
        Nov 10 at 14:11










      • @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
        – b3ko
        Nov 10 at 14:29






      • 2




        His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
        – Pat Muchmore
        Nov 10 at 16:04






      • 1




        chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
        – James K
        Nov 10 at 21:11
















      Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
      – b3ko
      Nov 10 at 13:11




      Curious was this piece written when equal temperament tuning was wide spread or before? If it was before each key would sound very different.
      – b3ko
      Nov 10 at 13:11




      4




      4




      @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
      – badjohn
      Nov 10 at 14:11




      @b3ko 1906 to 1975, i think equal temperament was quite widespread.
      – badjohn
      Nov 10 at 14:11












      @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
      – b3ko
      Nov 10 at 14:29




      @badjohn for sure. I wasn't familiar with the composer or piece. So that's not the reason.
      – b3ko
      Nov 10 at 14:29




      2




      2




      His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
      – Pat Muchmore
      Nov 10 at 16:04




      His 12th string quartet is in Db as well, so obviously there are times he prefers the muddier, duskier sound of non-open keys even when there aren’t winds involved.
      – Pat Muchmore
      Nov 10 at 16:04




      1




      1




      chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
      – James K
      Nov 10 at 21:11




      chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/NX3747.pdf contains an image of the start of the manuscript. (on page 6) It is C major.
      – James K
      Nov 10 at 21:11










      up vote
      1
      down vote













      Here's a slightly more Occam's Razor answer: it doesn't answer the specifics of your query, but in the general case of your title question it bears repeating.



      I was once asked almost the same question about a piece i wrote -- a choral piece with recurring C♯ in the altos which provided a tonal anchor (i'm loath to say key). Anyway, i was asked, "Why C♯ in the altos? Why not C?" to which i answered: "It's what i heard." Perhaps composers of music in "difficult" keys would answer the same were they asked.






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        Here's a slightly more Occam's Razor answer: it doesn't answer the specifics of your query, but in the general case of your title question it bears repeating.



        I was once asked almost the same question about a piece i wrote -- a choral piece with recurring C♯ in the altos which provided a tonal anchor (i'm loath to say key). Anyway, i was asked, "Why C♯ in the altos? Why not C?" to which i answered: "It's what i heard." Perhaps composers of music in "difficult" keys would answer the same were they asked.






        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          1
          down vote










          up vote
          1
          down vote









          Here's a slightly more Occam's Razor answer: it doesn't answer the specifics of your query, but in the general case of your title question it bears repeating.



          I was once asked almost the same question about a piece i wrote -- a choral piece with recurring C♯ in the altos which provided a tonal anchor (i'm loath to say key). Anyway, i was asked, "Why C♯ in the altos? Why not C?" to which i answered: "It's what i heard." Perhaps composers of music in "difficult" keys would answer the same were they asked.






          share|improve this answer












          Here's a slightly more Occam's Razor answer: it doesn't answer the specifics of your query, but in the general case of your title question it bears repeating.



          I was once asked almost the same question about a piece i wrote -- a choral piece with recurring C♯ in the altos which provided a tonal anchor (i'm loath to say key). Anyway, i was asked, "Why C♯ in the altos? Why not C?" to which i answered: "It's what i heard." Perhaps composers of music in "difficult" keys would answer the same were they asked.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Nov 15 at 3:27









          Dean Ransevycz

          1,289514




          1,289514






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              I really wish there was an online score so we could see the original keys of the entire suite!



              The only thing I can find is...
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gadfly_Suite



              ...everything else I find is some kind of arrangement.



              Anyway, considering the Romance was only one movement from a suite, the key selection for the Romance could depend on the surrounding movements in the whole suite.






              share|improve this answer

























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                I really wish there was an online score so we could see the original keys of the entire suite!



                The only thing I can find is...
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gadfly_Suite



                ...everything else I find is some kind of arrangement.



                Anyway, considering the Romance was only one movement from a suite, the key selection for the Romance could depend on the surrounding movements in the whole suite.






                share|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  I really wish there was an online score so we could see the original keys of the entire suite!



                  The only thing I can find is...
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gadfly_Suite



                  ...everything else I find is some kind of arrangement.



                  Anyway, considering the Romance was only one movement from a suite, the key selection for the Romance could depend on the surrounding movements in the whole suite.






                  share|improve this answer












                  I really wish there was an online score so we could see the original keys of the entire suite!



                  The only thing I can find is...
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gadfly_Suite



                  ...everything else I find is some kind of arrangement.



                  Anyway, considering the Romance was only one movement from a suite, the key selection for the Romance could depend on the surrounding movements in the whole suite.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 16 at 15:38









                  Michael Curtis

                  4,658325




                  4,658325






























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