Am I the only one to hear Cb instead of B here?
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This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
favorite
up vote
7
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
harmony hearing
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
edited Nov 8 at 20:07
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
asked Nov 8 at 19:19
Alexandre C.
26817
26817
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54
add a comment |
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54
add a comment |
3 Answers
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accepted
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
There is no c-flat in the key of c minor, and that’s what key we’re in here.
The b-natural has a scale-degree function to move to c, and that’s what it does here. C-flat doesn’t have that role.
There is no harmonic function of a-flat minor in this spot. B and a-flat are non-harmonic tones resolving to c and g in the c minor triad in first inversion.
For those reasons, I’d say Bach notated this correctly.
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
answered Nov 8 at 19:30
Scott Wallace
3,930816
3,930816
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
add a comment |
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:52
1
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:11
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
@ScottWallace, if I follow your answer, the essential harmony at the part circled in red is V-V4/2-i6, right? The B natural is then a suspension/retardation and the A flat above an appoggiatura?
– Michael Curtis
Nov 13 at 20:07
1
1
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
@MichaelCurtis - the way I hear it- and this is of course subjective- is that the part circled in red is a dominant, in the form of a diminished seventh chord, very typical for Bach, which would be completely spelled out as B-D-F-Ab, but in this case, is missing the third and the fifth, but is also complicated by its resolution to the tonic being anticipated in the bass, in the first inversion. But there's such a thing as getting too wound up in analysis.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 14 at 18:01
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
answered Nov 8 at 19:39
Ben I.
1,009415
1,009415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
|
show 3 more comments
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 8 at 20:08
1
1
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
@AlexandreC. I just listened to your recording. If anything, it seems even more startling there. It feels too out of place to be a fundamental harmonic idea. That's NCT territory :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:15
1
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
Nov 8 at 20:16
1
1
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
@AlexandreC. - I can't argue with that, and after repeated listenings, I too managed to hear an Ab minor chord there. I'm sure my perception is also colored by the fact that I've played this piece many times, and tend to hear Bach along the lines I'm accustomed too. And thanks for pointing this out- it's interesting in any case.
– Scott Wallace
Nov 9 at 10:38
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
There is no c-flat in the key of c minor, and that’s what key we’re in here.
The b-natural has a scale-degree function to move to c, and that’s what it does here. C-flat doesn’t have that role.
There is no harmonic function of a-flat minor in this spot. B and a-flat are non-harmonic tones resolving to c and g in the c minor triad in first inversion.
For those reasons, I’d say Bach notated this correctly.
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
There is no c-flat in the key of c minor, and that’s what key we’re in here.
The b-natural has a scale-degree function to move to c, and that’s what it does here. C-flat doesn’t have that role.
There is no harmonic function of a-flat minor in this spot. B and a-flat are non-harmonic tones resolving to c and g in the c minor triad in first inversion.
For those reasons, I’d say Bach notated this correctly.
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
There is no c-flat in the key of c minor, and that’s what key we’re in here.
The b-natural has a scale-degree function to move to c, and that’s what it does here. C-flat doesn’t have that role.
There is no harmonic function of a-flat minor in this spot. B and a-flat are non-harmonic tones resolving to c and g in the c minor triad in first inversion.
For those reasons, I’d say Bach notated this correctly.
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
There is no c-flat in the key of c minor, and that’s what key we’re in here.
The b-natural has a scale-degree function to move to c, and that’s what it does here. C-flat doesn’t have that role.
There is no harmonic function of a-flat minor in this spot. B and a-flat are non-harmonic tones resolving to c and g in the c minor triad in first inversion.
For those reasons, I’d say Bach notated this correctly.
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
answered Nov 13 at 19:45
Paul Smith
211
211
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
add a comment |
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
There is absolutely no question that the intended harmony requires B -> C (V to I, over a pedal of Eb, if you want). Moreover, an accidental Cb would have to go down to Bb. This is only a matter of acoustics -- the chord sounds like an Ab minor chord (and thus a "chromatic mediant" movement) when played on an organ.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 14 at 19:44
add a comment |
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Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
Nov 8 at 19:40
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 8 at 19:50
What's the difference between Cb and B? Shouldn't they be the same with well temperament?
– Eric Duminil
Nov 9 at 9:25
@EricDuminil the question is whether you hear a G dominant over the Eb, or something stranger (Ab minor chord). In the second case, the B would have been noted CB instead. To hear the difference, play the circled chord adding respectively the D or the Eb above middle C.
– Alexandre C.
Nov 9 at 12:54