How to modulate very smoothly and stealthily from major to minor?
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
I would like to modulate from G major to c minor in such a way that it would be almost unnoticeable to the listener. I'm composing a piece in a style that's very Arvo-Pärtesque minimalist-sounding, so that does limit the chromatic/enharmonic options. The main difficulty seems to be that it's very hard to introduce the E flat without it sounding ever so slightly jarring. The other way round (going stealthily from minor to major) is much easier, for some reason.
harmony modulation styles
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
I would like to modulate from G major to c minor in such a way that it would be almost unnoticeable to the listener. I'm composing a piece in a style that's very Arvo-Pärtesque minimalist-sounding, so that does limit the chromatic/enharmonic options. The main difficulty seems to be that it's very hard to introduce the E flat without it sounding ever so slightly jarring. The other way round (going stealthily from minor to major) is much easier, for some reason.
harmony modulation styles
3
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
4
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
1
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
3
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
I would like to modulate from G major to c minor in such a way that it would be almost unnoticeable to the listener. I'm composing a piece in a style that's very Arvo-Pärtesque minimalist-sounding, so that does limit the chromatic/enharmonic options. The main difficulty seems to be that it's very hard to introduce the E flat without it sounding ever so slightly jarring. The other way round (going stealthily from minor to major) is much easier, for some reason.
harmony modulation styles
I would like to modulate from G major to c minor in such a way that it would be almost unnoticeable to the listener. I'm composing a piece in a style that's very Arvo-Pärtesque minimalist-sounding, so that does limit the chromatic/enharmonic options. The main difficulty seems to be that it's very hard to introduce the E flat without it sounding ever so slightly jarring. The other way round (going stealthily from minor to major) is much easier, for some reason.
harmony modulation styles
harmony modulation styles
asked Nov 12 at 6:52
Kim Fierens
614610
614610
3
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
4
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
1
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
3
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10
|
show 4 more comments
3
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
4
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
1
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
3
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10
3
3
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
4
4
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
1
1
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
3
3
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10
|
show 4 more comments
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Within a minimalist sort of setting, one approach I might take would be to boil things down to just the root or root and fifth. If you have a long enough period of time where you don't have a third in the mix, your ear won't be glued to a given tonality and introducing the minor flavor into the mix shouldn't sound as abrupt. You can also start adding in the b7 of the original key before hitting the Eb. Since there is a major mode that has a b7 (Mixolydian), that is the only note that is present in the minor modes that is common with any major modes.
I'm not familiar with Arvo-Pärtesque to be able to say whether or not this approach would be great in that context or not.
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Eb is certainly a foreigner in G major. To help the ear not to be surprised by it, you could use D# a couple of times as a chromatic passing note from D to E (D > D# > E) in preceding melody. This could be part of an innocuous harmonic progression like I-IV. You could then write a melodic fragment D -> Eb -> G, introducing C minor around G. You could tonicise it then and there, or later.
Mozart was a master of musical puns like this. See how crafty he was in the 24th Piano Concerto:
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
I would recommend, as a general approach, looking at Max Reger's Modulation. C min is relative to Eb Maj, a cadence from GMaj to Eb Maj could be modified to move to C min in a fairly straight forward manner.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Using the notes that make up Bo works well. Diminished harmonies are often used to move out of one diatonic place to another.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
G major is the dominant chord of C harmonic minor, so I don't think you actually need to do anything special to go from one to the other. G already moves in to Cm easily. Try a progression like G, Am, D7, G, Cm, Fm, G, Cm
, for example. (You could of course drop the harmonic minor after the switch, so the 2nd half of that example could as well be e.g. Cm, Fm, Gm, Cm
.)
Other, shorter examples, with 3-note voicings:
D7, G, Cm
Am7, G, Cm
G, G7, Cm
(alsoG, Bdim, Cm
)
G, C, Cm
(a little different)
Some of those work fine, even with just 2-note voicings.
Emphasizing the leading tone resolution (B in to C) somehow can also help make the G, Cm
change sound more deliberate.
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something likeD, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here'sG, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
A modulation from G major to C minor would be a modulation to the subdominant.
The most straight forward way to to the subdominant is the lower the leading tone and apply it to the tonic chord. In G major, change the F sharp to F natural and add it to the tonic G chord. So the tonic I
chord in G major will become the dominant V7
in C (major or minor.)
The interesting part is your concern about the tone E flat and the possibility it could be jarring.
The vii°7 in G major is F#,A,C,Eb so you could use that to move into G and introduce the E flat. Something like G: vii°7 I Cm: V4/2 i6/3
.
Another possibility is to go to the major IV first then just lower the third to make it minor iv. If that is combined with the G7 you will get a nice chromatic descent F,E,Eb
plus both work with the notion of altering tones by lowering them.
EDIT
Forgot to load an image yesterday. I added a third example trying out two converging chromatic lines.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Modulations should make use of pivot chords to make the modulation smooth.
A pivot chord(s) put simply is chords that fit in both the key you are modulating towards and the key you are coming from.
so for instance, if you have a 4 bar phrase in C Major. Let say your phrase ends on an interrupted cadence. Now that six-chord of C major is an a minor chord, this is conveniently also the tonic chord of a minor. Both these chords are a suitable resolution to your cadence.
Now we are in the second chord of your second four bar phrase now you can go to the d minor chord that is again both C:ii and a:iv this is the second pivot chord you can use.
Then finally we would just have an E Major chord with a raised g# tha resolves correctly to now make it clear that we are in a minor. There is nothing that makes modulations as clear as Leading Tones resolving towards a Tonic.
Some modulations lend themselves more towards the use of pivot chords than others but the modulation to the relative minor is an especially easy one to use them with.
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
The progression I I7 IV iv is quite common. If you were to establish that as a pattern in G major, but gradually shift the rythmic emphasis away from the I and IV and toward the I7 and iv, then those two chords could come to be perceived as the V7 and i of C minor, without there necessarily having been any clear point where the piece switched key.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
In case anyone's interested: I've solved, to my own satisfaction, the change of mode part of my question, in a rather unexpected way, by transitioning first to F sharp Aeolian. Of course, I'm still way off C minor, but modulating through minor-like modes and keys makes it easier (I hope). I think the main lesson here is that key transition doesn't necessarily involve advanced "chord magic" (although it can). Stylistically speaking, it's more about setting up proper expectations and then refuting those in a convincing way than anything else.
The repeat bars all involve two repetitions instead of the usual one, by the way. The key of G major had been very firmly established beforehand. I want to end with a modulation from C minor back to D minor (hence the key signature), followed of course by a protracted cadence in that key.
Follow-up question (to all you harpists out there): is the stuff I wrote for the harp at all playable, assuming a reasonably competent harpist? (The tempo is very slow, like 45 BPM.)
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f76406%2fhow-to-modulate-very-smoothly-and-stealthily-from-major-to-minor%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Within a minimalist sort of setting, one approach I might take would be to boil things down to just the root or root and fifth. If you have a long enough period of time where you don't have a third in the mix, your ear won't be glued to a given tonality and introducing the minor flavor into the mix shouldn't sound as abrupt. You can also start adding in the b7 of the original key before hitting the Eb. Since there is a major mode that has a b7 (Mixolydian), that is the only note that is present in the minor modes that is common with any major modes.
I'm not familiar with Arvo-Pärtesque to be able to say whether or not this approach would be great in that context or not.
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Within a minimalist sort of setting, one approach I might take would be to boil things down to just the root or root and fifth. If you have a long enough period of time where you don't have a third in the mix, your ear won't be glued to a given tonality and introducing the minor flavor into the mix shouldn't sound as abrupt. You can also start adding in the b7 of the original key before hitting the Eb. Since there is a major mode that has a b7 (Mixolydian), that is the only note that is present in the minor modes that is common with any major modes.
I'm not familiar with Arvo-Pärtesque to be able to say whether or not this approach would be great in that context or not.
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
up vote
10
down vote
accepted
Within a minimalist sort of setting, one approach I might take would be to boil things down to just the root or root and fifth. If you have a long enough period of time where you don't have a third in the mix, your ear won't be glued to a given tonality and introducing the minor flavor into the mix shouldn't sound as abrupt. You can also start adding in the b7 of the original key before hitting the Eb. Since there is a major mode that has a b7 (Mixolydian), that is the only note that is present in the minor modes that is common with any major modes.
I'm not familiar with Arvo-Pärtesque to be able to say whether or not this approach would be great in that context or not.
Within a minimalist sort of setting, one approach I might take would be to boil things down to just the root or root and fifth. If you have a long enough period of time where you don't have a third in the mix, your ear won't be glued to a given tonality and introducing the minor flavor into the mix shouldn't sound as abrupt. You can also start adding in the b7 of the original key before hitting the Eb. Since there is a major mode that has a b7 (Mixolydian), that is the only note that is present in the minor modes that is common with any major modes.
I'm not familiar with Arvo-Pärtesque to be able to say whether or not this approach would be great in that context or not.
answered Nov 12 at 19:38
Basstickler
6,0931033
6,0931033
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
add a comment |
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
1
1
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
That sounds like the most convincing way (stylistically speaking) I've read here so far. Just fade out the thirds for a while (or treat them like dissonances as it were) and then gradually bring them back in. Definitely going to try that. Thanks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:31
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
No problem! I definitely don’t write minimalist music or have a lot of experience there but that makes the most sense to me
– Basstickler
Nov 12 at 23:17
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
If you're still interested, I've posted a (partial) answer to my own question. It will probably end up at the bottom, and possibly attract its share of criticism, my "modulation" being more a juxtaposition of keys. Whatever. It fits my style, and I'm happy with it.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 14 at 0:34
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Eb is certainly a foreigner in G major. To help the ear not to be surprised by it, you could use D# a couple of times as a chromatic passing note from D to E (D > D# > E) in preceding melody. This could be part of an innocuous harmonic progression like I-IV. You could then write a melodic fragment D -> Eb -> G, introducing C minor around G. You could tonicise it then and there, or later.
Mozart was a master of musical puns like this. See how crafty he was in the 24th Piano Concerto:
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Eb is certainly a foreigner in G major. To help the ear not to be surprised by it, you could use D# a couple of times as a chromatic passing note from D to E (D > D# > E) in preceding melody. This could be part of an innocuous harmonic progression like I-IV. You could then write a melodic fragment D -> Eb -> G, introducing C minor around G. You could tonicise it then and there, or later.
Mozart was a master of musical puns like this. See how crafty he was in the 24th Piano Concerto:
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
up vote
23
down vote
Eb is certainly a foreigner in G major. To help the ear not to be surprised by it, you could use D# a couple of times as a chromatic passing note from D to E (D > D# > E) in preceding melody. This could be part of an innocuous harmonic progression like I-IV. You could then write a melodic fragment D -> Eb -> G, introducing C minor around G. You could tonicise it then and there, or later.
Mozart was a master of musical puns like this. See how crafty he was in the 24th Piano Concerto:
Eb is certainly a foreigner in G major. To help the ear not to be surprised by it, you could use D# a couple of times as a chromatic passing note from D to E (D > D# > E) in preceding melody. This could be part of an innocuous harmonic progression like I-IV. You could then write a melodic fragment D -> Eb -> G, introducing C minor around G. You could tonicise it then and there, or later.
Mozart was a master of musical puns like this. See how crafty he was in the 24th Piano Concerto:
answered Nov 12 at 7:29
replete
1,788414
1,788414
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
add a comment |
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
1
1
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
Thanks for this excellent answer. I think I could jiggle it in as a chromatic passing note. Mozart rocks!
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 8:07
2
2
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
Listen to the image: youtu.be/2XlLpZ4erlw?t=447
– bjb568
Nov 12 at 17:25
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
I would recommend, as a general approach, looking at Max Reger's Modulation. C min is relative to Eb Maj, a cadence from GMaj to Eb Maj could be modified to move to C min in a fairly straight forward manner.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
I would recommend, as a general approach, looking at Max Reger's Modulation. C min is relative to Eb Maj, a cadence from GMaj to Eb Maj could be modified to move to C min in a fairly straight forward manner.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
I would recommend, as a general approach, looking at Max Reger's Modulation. C min is relative to Eb Maj, a cadence from GMaj to Eb Maj could be modified to move to C min in a fairly straight forward manner.
I would recommend, as a general approach, looking at Max Reger's Modulation. C min is relative to Eb Maj, a cadence from GMaj to Eb Maj could be modified to move to C min in a fairly straight forward manner.
answered Nov 12 at 15:00
ggcg
3,544219
3,544219
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Using the notes that make up Bo works well. Diminished harmonies are often used to move out of one diatonic place to another.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Using the notes that make up Bo works well. Diminished harmonies are often used to move out of one diatonic place to another.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Using the notes that make up Bo works well. Diminished harmonies are often used to move out of one diatonic place to another.
Using the notes that make up Bo works well. Diminished harmonies are often used to move out of one diatonic place to another.
answered Nov 12 at 8:35
Tim
94.9k1097240
94.9k1097240
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
G major is the dominant chord of C harmonic minor, so I don't think you actually need to do anything special to go from one to the other. G already moves in to Cm easily. Try a progression like G, Am, D7, G, Cm, Fm, G, Cm
, for example. (You could of course drop the harmonic minor after the switch, so the 2nd half of that example could as well be e.g. Cm, Fm, Gm, Cm
.)
Other, shorter examples, with 3-note voicings:
D7, G, Cm
Am7, G, Cm
G, G7, Cm
(alsoG, Bdim, Cm
)
G, C, Cm
(a little different)
Some of those work fine, even with just 2-note voicings.
Emphasizing the leading tone resolution (B in to C) somehow can also help make the G, Cm
change sound more deliberate.
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something likeD, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here'sG, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
G major is the dominant chord of C harmonic minor, so I don't think you actually need to do anything special to go from one to the other. G already moves in to Cm easily. Try a progression like G, Am, D7, G, Cm, Fm, G, Cm
, for example. (You could of course drop the harmonic minor after the switch, so the 2nd half of that example could as well be e.g. Cm, Fm, Gm, Cm
.)
Other, shorter examples, with 3-note voicings:
D7, G, Cm
Am7, G, Cm
G, G7, Cm
(alsoG, Bdim, Cm
)
G, C, Cm
(a little different)
Some of those work fine, even with just 2-note voicings.
Emphasizing the leading tone resolution (B in to C) somehow can also help make the G, Cm
change sound more deliberate.
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something likeD, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here'sG, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
G major is the dominant chord of C harmonic minor, so I don't think you actually need to do anything special to go from one to the other. G already moves in to Cm easily. Try a progression like G, Am, D7, G, Cm, Fm, G, Cm
, for example. (You could of course drop the harmonic minor after the switch, so the 2nd half of that example could as well be e.g. Cm, Fm, Gm, Cm
.)
Other, shorter examples, with 3-note voicings:
D7, G, Cm
Am7, G, Cm
G, G7, Cm
(alsoG, Bdim, Cm
)
G, C, Cm
(a little different)
Some of those work fine, even with just 2-note voicings.
Emphasizing the leading tone resolution (B in to C) somehow can also help make the G, Cm
change sound more deliberate.
G major is the dominant chord of C harmonic minor, so I don't think you actually need to do anything special to go from one to the other. G already moves in to Cm easily. Try a progression like G, Am, D7, G, Cm, Fm, G, Cm
, for example. (You could of course drop the harmonic minor after the switch, so the 2nd half of that example could as well be e.g. Cm, Fm, Gm, Cm
.)
Other, shorter examples, with 3-note voicings:
D7, G, Cm
Am7, G, Cm
G, G7, Cm
(alsoG, Bdim, Cm
)
G, C, Cm
(a little different)
Some of those work fine, even with just 2-note voicings.
Emphasizing the leading tone resolution (B in to C) somehow can also help make the G, Cm
change sound more deliberate.
edited Nov 13 at 19:43
answered Nov 13 at 16:44
Radiodef
25317
25317
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something likeD, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here'sG, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
|
show 2 more comments
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something likeD, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here'sG, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?
– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to accomplish this in a minimalist setting, so a whole bunch of chord changes isn't likely to help.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 16:57
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.
G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something like D, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
@Basstickler There's no reason they can't use fewer chords than my example.
G, Cm
is the only necessary part, or something like D, G, Cm
if they want to spend more time setting it up.– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 17:12
1
1
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
I think it just depends on how minimalist they are going for. Extreme minimalism may not even really have chord progressions. Ultimately, I'd argue that the answer you've supplied makes sense for a modulation but doesn't seem to satisfy what the OP is asking for, particularly that they are stating that the inclusion of the Eb in the C minor chord feels abrupt. It's true that G is the dominant in C minor and that it acts as a good pivot chord but ultimately that doesn't help the fact that the modulation to minor is jarring.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 17:49
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here's
G, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
@Basstickler I don't think there's any reason these progressions can't be used in a minimalist composition. Here's
G, G7, Cm
with two-note voicings, for example. I'm honestly not really understanding your criticism here. Do you think I should try to explain how I would go about voicing these chords?– Radiodef
Nov 13 at 18:09
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
I don't think that your answer is wrong in general or that it's impossible to accomplish in a minimalist setting, just that it doesn't seem to address what the OP is talking about with the addition of the Eb sounding abrupt.
– Basstickler
Nov 13 at 18:16
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
A modulation from G major to C minor would be a modulation to the subdominant.
The most straight forward way to to the subdominant is the lower the leading tone and apply it to the tonic chord. In G major, change the F sharp to F natural and add it to the tonic G chord. So the tonic I
chord in G major will become the dominant V7
in C (major or minor.)
The interesting part is your concern about the tone E flat and the possibility it could be jarring.
The vii°7 in G major is F#,A,C,Eb so you could use that to move into G and introduce the E flat. Something like G: vii°7 I Cm: V4/2 i6/3
.
Another possibility is to go to the major IV first then just lower the third to make it minor iv. If that is combined with the G7 you will get a nice chromatic descent F,E,Eb
plus both work with the notion of altering tones by lowering them.
EDIT
Forgot to load an image yesterday. I added a third example trying out two converging chromatic lines.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
A modulation from G major to C minor would be a modulation to the subdominant.
The most straight forward way to to the subdominant is the lower the leading tone and apply it to the tonic chord. In G major, change the F sharp to F natural and add it to the tonic G chord. So the tonic I
chord in G major will become the dominant V7
in C (major or minor.)
The interesting part is your concern about the tone E flat and the possibility it could be jarring.
The vii°7 in G major is F#,A,C,Eb so you could use that to move into G and introduce the E flat. Something like G: vii°7 I Cm: V4/2 i6/3
.
Another possibility is to go to the major IV first then just lower the third to make it minor iv. If that is combined with the G7 you will get a nice chromatic descent F,E,Eb
plus both work with the notion of altering tones by lowering them.
EDIT
Forgot to load an image yesterday. I added a third example trying out two converging chromatic lines.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
A modulation from G major to C minor would be a modulation to the subdominant.
The most straight forward way to to the subdominant is the lower the leading tone and apply it to the tonic chord. In G major, change the F sharp to F natural and add it to the tonic G chord. So the tonic I
chord in G major will become the dominant V7
in C (major or minor.)
The interesting part is your concern about the tone E flat and the possibility it could be jarring.
The vii°7 in G major is F#,A,C,Eb so you could use that to move into G and introduce the E flat. Something like G: vii°7 I Cm: V4/2 i6/3
.
Another possibility is to go to the major IV first then just lower the third to make it minor iv. If that is combined with the G7 you will get a nice chromatic descent F,E,Eb
plus both work with the notion of altering tones by lowering them.
EDIT
Forgot to load an image yesterday. I added a third example trying out two converging chromatic lines.
A modulation from G major to C minor would be a modulation to the subdominant.
The most straight forward way to to the subdominant is the lower the leading tone and apply it to the tonic chord. In G major, change the F sharp to F natural and add it to the tonic G chord. So the tonic I
chord in G major will become the dominant V7
in C (major or minor.)
The interesting part is your concern about the tone E flat and the possibility it could be jarring.
The vii°7 in G major is F#,A,C,Eb so you could use that to move into G and introduce the E flat. Something like G: vii°7 I Cm: V4/2 i6/3
.
Another possibility is to go to the major IV first then just lower the third to make it minor iv. If that is combined with the G7 you will get a nice chromatic descent F,E,Eb
plus both work with the notion of altering tones by lowering them.
EDIT
Forgot to load an image yesterday. I added a third example trying out two converging chromatic lines.
edited Nov 13 at 21:32
answered Nov 12 at 21:36
Michael Curtis
5,237325
5,237325
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Modulations should make use of pivot chords to make the modulation smooth.
A pivot chord(s) put simply is chords that fit in both the key you are modulating towards and the key you are coming from.
so for instance, if you have a 4 bar phrase in C Major. Let say your phrase ends on an interrupted cadence. Now that six-chord of C major is an a minor chord, this is conveniently also the tonic chord of a minor. Both these chords are a suitable resolution to your cadence.
Now we are in the second chord of your second four bar phrase now you can go to the d minor chord that is again both C:ii and a:iv this is the second pivot chord you can use.
Then finally we would just have an E Major chord with a raised g# tha resolves correctly to now make it clear that we are in a minor. There is nothing that makes modulations as clear as Leading Tones resolving towards a Tonic.
Some modulations lend themselves more towards the use of pivot chords than others but the modulation to the relative minor is an especially easy one to use them with.
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Modulations should make use of pivot chords to make the modulation smooth.
A pivot chord(s) put simply is chords that fit in both the key you are modulating towards and the key you are coming from.
so for instance, if you have a 4 bar phrase in C Major. Let say your phrase ends on an interrupted cadence. Now that six-chord of C major is an a minor chord, this is conveniently also the tonic chord of a minor. Both these chords are a suitable resolution to your cadence.
Now we are in the second chord of your second four bar phrase now you can go to the d minor chord that is again both C:ii and a:iv this is the second pivot chord you can use.
Then finally we would just have an E Major chord with a raised g# tha resolves correctly to now make it clear that we are in a minor. There is nothing that makes modulations as clear as Leading Tones resolving towards a Tonic.
Some modulations lend themselves more towards the use of pivot chords than others but the modulation to the relative minor is an especially easy one to use them with.
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Modulations should make use of pivot chords to make the modulation smooth.
A pivot chord(s) put simply is chords that fit in both the key you are modulating towards and the key you are coming from.
so for instance, if you have a 4 bar phrase in C Major. Let say your phrase ends on an interrupted cadence. Now that six-chord of C major is an a minor chord, this is conveniently also the tonic chord of a minor. Both these chords are a suitable resolution to your cadence.
Now we are in the second chord of your second four bar phrase now you can go to the d minor chord that is again both C:ii and a:iv this is the second pivot chord you can use.
Then finally we would just have an E Major chord with a raised g# tha resolves correctly to now make it clear that we are in a minor. There is nothing that makes modulations as clear as Leading Tones resolving towards a Tonic.
Some modulations lend themselves more towards the use of pivot chords than others but the modulation to the relative minor is an especially easy one to use them with.
Modulations should make use of pivot chords to make the modulation smooth.
A pivot chord(s) put simply is chords that fit in both the key you are modulating towards and the key you are coming from.
so for instance, if you have a 4 bar phrase in C Major. Let say your phrase ends on an interrupted cadence. Now that six-chord of C major is an a minor chord, this is conveniently also the tonic chord of a minor. Both these chords are a suitable resolution to your cadence.
Now we are in the second chord of your second four bar phrase now you can go to the d minor chord that is again both C:ii and a:iv this is the second pivot chord you can use.
Then finally we would just have an E Major chord with a raised g# tha resolves correctly to now make it clear that we are in a minor. There is nothing that makes modulations as clear as Leading Tones resolving towards a Tonic.
Some modulations lend themselves more towards the use of pivot chords than others but the modulation to the relative minor is an especially easy one to use them with.
answered Nov 12 at 18:29
Neil Meyer
8,81222649
8,81222649
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
add a comment |
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
5
5
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
All very well and fancy. But OP wants to get to C MINOR.
– Tim
Nov 12 at 21:05
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
The progression I I7 IV iv is quite common. If you were to establish that as a pattern in G major, but gradually shift the rythmic emphasis away from the I and IV and toward the I7 and iv, then those two chords could come to be perceived as the V7 and i of C minor, without there necessarily having been any clear point where the piece switched key.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
The progression I I7 IV iv is quite common. If you were to establish that as a pattern in G major, but gradually shift the rythmic emphasis away from the I and IV and toward the I7 and iv, then those two chords could come to be perceived as the V7 and i of C minor, without there necessarily having been any clear point where the piece switched key.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
The progression I I7 IV iv is quite common. If you were to establish that as a pattern in G major, but gradually shift the rythmic emphasis away from the I and IV and toward the I7 and iv, then those two chords could come to be perceived as the V7 and i of C minor, without there necessarily having been any clear point where the piece switched key.
The progression I I7 IV iv is quite common. If you were to establish that as a pattern in G major, but gradually shift the rythmic emphasis away from the I and IV and toward the I7 and iv, then those two chords could come to be perceived as the V7 and i of C minor, without there necessarily having been any clear point where the piece switched key.
answered Nov 13 at 21:24
supercat
2,282914
2,282914
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
In case anyone's interested: I've solved, to my own satisfaction, the change of mode part of my question, in a rather unexpected way, by transitioning first to F sharp Aeolian. Of course, I'm still way off C minor, but modulating through minor-like modes and keys makes it easier (I hope). I think the main lesson here is that key transition doesn't necessarily involve advanced "chord magic" (although it can). Stylistically speaking, it's more about setting up proper expectations and then refuting those in a convincing way than anything else.
The repeat bars all involve two repetitions instead of the usual one, by the way. The key of G major had been very firmly established beforehand. I want to end with a modulation from C minor back to D minor (hence the key signature), followed of course by a protracted cadence in that key.
Follow-up question (to all you harpists out there): is the stuff I wrote for the harp at all playable, assuming a reasonably competent harpist? (The tempo is very slow, like 45 BPM.)
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
In case anyone's interested: I've solved, to my own satisfaction, the change of mode part of my question, in a rather unexpected way, by transitioning first to F sharp Aeolian. Of course, I'm still way off C minor, but modulating through minor-like modes and keys makes it easier (I hope). I think the main lesson here is that key transition doesn't necessarily involve advanced "chord magic" (although it can). Stylistically speaking, it's more about setting up proper expectations and then refuting those in a convincing way than anything else.
The repeat bars all involve two repetitions instead of the usual one, by the way. The key of G major had been very firmly established beforehand. I want to end with a modulation from C minor back to D minor (hence the key signature), followed of course by a protracted cadence in that key.
Follow-up question (to all you harpists out there): is the stuff I wrote for the harp at all playable, assuming a reasonably competent harpist? (The tempo is very slow, like 45 BPM.)
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
In case anyone's interested: I've solved, to my own satisfaction, the change of mode part of my question, in a rather unexpected way, by transitioning first to F sharp Aeolian. Of course, I'm still way off C minor, but modulating through minor-like modes and keys makes it easier (I hope). I think the main lesson here is that key transition doesn't necessarily involve advanced "chord magic" (although it can). Stylistically speaking, it's more about setting up proper expectations and then refuting those in a convincing way than anything else.
The repeat bars all involve two repetitions instead of the usual one, by the way. The key of G major had been very firmly established beforehand. I want to end with a modulation from C minor back to D minor (hence the key signature), followed of course by a protracted cadence in that key.
Follow-up question (to all you harpists out there): is the stuff I wrote for the harp at all playable, assuming a reasonably competent harpist? (The tempo is very slow, like 45 BPM.)
In case anyone's interested: I've solved, to my own satisfaction, the change of mode part of my question, in a rather unexpected way, by transitioning first to F sharp Aeolian. Of course, I'm still way off C minor, but modulating through minor-like modes and keys makes it easier (I hope). I think the main lesson here is that key transition doesn't necessarily involve advanced "chord magic" (although it can). Stylistically speaking, it's more about setting up proper expectations and then refuting those in a convincing way than anything else.
The repeat bars all involve two repetitions instead of the usual one, by the way. The key of G major had been very firmly established beforehand. I want to end with a modulation from C minor back to D minor (hence the key signature), followed of course by a protracted cadence in that key.
Follow-up question (to all you harpists out there): is the stuff I wrote for the harp at all playable, assuming a reasonably competent harpist? (The tempo is very slow, like 45 BPM.)
edited Nov 14 at 0:40
answered Nov 14 at 0:30
Kim Fierens
614610
614610
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
add a comment |
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
1
1
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
Have you looked at my answer? The repeating sequence G G7 C Cm, with rhythmic emphasis on the G and C, will suggest a G major tone center, but if the rhythmic emphasis is shifted to G7 and Cm, it will suggest a C minor tone center. If the shift in emphasis is gradual, there may not be any point the listener can identify as a key change.
– supercat
Nov 19 at 16:51
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f76406%2fhow-to-modulate-very-smoothly-and-stealthily-from-major-to-minor%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
3
I'd be intrigued to find out why this question has attracted 1000 views. It's a great question, but so prolific!
– Tim
Nov 12 at 18:16
4
@Tim it may be the somewhat misleading title. I thought it was about a mode change major I to minor i - of course not a modulation - but it's really about modulating to minor iv.
– Michael Curtis
Nov 12 at 20:51
@Tim I've been wondering about that as well. It's not like there's a shortage of "How to modulate from X to Y?" questions on this stack.
– Kim Fierens
Nov 12 at 22:23
1
@dalearn - what does that mean, please?
– Tim
Nov 13 at 13:47
3
@Tim My impression is that this question—and it's a good question!—involves a few buzzwords that attract the everyday musician. I know I've heard several self-learned guitarists and composers talk about making modulations that are "smooth" and "stealth" without disrupting the musical surface too much; perhaps this is why the question is so popular? (Again, I'm not denigrating the question at all; it's a good quesiton, and I'm glad it's here!)
– Richard
Nov 13 at 17:10